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    The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

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    Grits

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    The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 6:51 pm

    John,

    Starting this topic here...please chime in...

    As I was saying on Earthboppin', I don't have fear about what is coming because the Bible has told us what to expect.

    I know not all Christians believe in the rapture, but I do...and my belief comes from the Bible and not from anywhere else. The church I grew up in did not teach the rapture.

    That being said, the Bible tells us to be prepared at all times. I believe we may have to go through some of the troubles before the rapture.

    I'll leave it here for now, but can back up what I say with scripture.

    Grits
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 7:12 pm

    hi Grits,

    I believe in the rapture, but not pre-trib. My main church when I accepted Christ was the pentecostal A of G church in Bakersfield in 1960, Full Gospecl Tabernacle (17th and O St.?) The A of G and the Pentecostal Evangel (A of G magazine) are both pre-trib, so I understand what they're saying.

    I'm glad your son and fiancee might be living with you (as you mentioned at EB). But if he's going to college, would he be able to commute?

    John

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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 7:34 pm

    But if he's going to college, would he be able to commute?

    Oh, yes...I will be living close to where he goes to school and he hopes to get a job where I work when he finishes, so that would be convenient also.

    I believe in pre-trib, but I've had many discussions with those that are mid-trib (which would be my second choice as I can see parts of that in the Bible), but I totally disagree with the post-trib folks as the Bible just doesn't support that. I definitely believe it will be pre-wrath.

    God rescued those in trouble every time to continue his plan. There is no reason to believe He will not do the same in the end.

    I think these verses solidly point to pre-trib:

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The Bible tells us that the saints will be part of the army that returns to earth for the final battle, so you would have to be with Him to return with Him.

    I've always believed there is evidence that this may occur one Rosh Hashanah although we will not know in which year. This year it falls on Sept. 16-18.

    So keep looking up! It "could" be any day... cheers
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:24 pm

    That's good that your son will be able to be with you and commute to college at the same time.

    I Thess. 4:17 tells about being "caught up" to be with Christ.

    This is the verse that seems to indicate that Christ returns with his "saints." -- taken from this link:
    http://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP355-5JesusComesWithSaints.htm#5.1

    1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
    13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints2.

    excerpt from the above link:

    In both of these cases the word translated holy is a plural of “hagios”, which shows that “angels” is the missing word in this case. Nowhere does the scripture ever say that Jesus comes back with men, but rather everywhere it is stated to be angels:
    --------------------------

    It's complicated but I agree that christians need to be prepared.

    John

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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:58 pm

    John,

    I went to the link you gave and I'm not sure about that source. Will look at it some more...

    Here is what the Blue Letter Bible says about "the saints":
    While hagioi occurs more frequently in the New Testament than does qadhosh in the Old Testament, yet both are applied with practical uniformity to the company of God’s people rather than to any individual. Perhaps the rendering "saints" cannot be improved, but it is necessary for the ordinary reader constantly to guard against the idea that New Testament saintship was in any way a result of personal character, and consequently that it implied approval of moral attainment already made. Such a rendering as "consecrate ones," for example, would bring out more clearly the relation to God which is involved, but, besides the fact that it is not a happy translation, it might lead to other errors, for it is not easy to remember that consecration—the setting apart of the individual as one of the company whom God has in a peculiar way as His own—springs not from man, but from God Himself, and that consequently it is in no way something optional, and admits of no degrees of progress, but, on the contrary, is from the beginning absolute duty. It should also be noted that while, as has been said, to be a saint is not directly and primarily to be good but to be set apart by God as His own, yet the godly and holy character ought inevitably and immediately to result. When God consecrates and claims moral beings for Himself and His service, He demands that they should go on to be fit for and worthy of the relation in which He has placed them, and so we read of certain actions as performed "worthily of the saints" (Ro 16:2) and as such "as becometh saints" (Eph 5:3). The thought of the holy character of the "saints," which is now so common as almost completely to obscure the real thought of the New Testament writers, already lay in their thinking very close to their conception of saintship as consecration by God to be His own.

    Cite This Article:

    Estes, David Foster. "Saints", International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia. Edited by James Orr. Blue Letter Bible. 1913. 5 May 2003 4 Sep 2012.
    <http://www.blueletterbible.org/Search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?
    type=GetTopic&Topic=Saints&DictList=4#ISBE>

    From this I take it to mean God's consecrated which is about what I already thought...

    Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    The significance of the clothing is symbolic as the marriage of the church and the Lamb has taken place at this point in time. See this commentary for further info:

    Matthew Henry
    Commentary on Revelation 19

    Cite This Page: (explanation of citations)

    Henry, Matthew. "Commentary on Revelation 19." . Blue Letter Bible. 1 Mar 1996. 2012. 4 Sep 2012.
    <http:// www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?
    AuthorID=4&contentID=1878&commInfo=5&topic=Revelation&
    ar=Rev_19_14 >

    This is fun! I love to discuss the Bible and I always learn something new...

    Grits
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    beejean

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    Rapture Hopes

    Post  beejean on Wed 05 Sep 2012, 12:33 am

    Hello,

    About Rapture Hopes...

    I can't discuss too long, because just as Elisha picked up the tasks of Elijah after Elijah was taken up to heaven on a chariot, we all have a job to do.

    If you're in relationship with God, then you probably have a way to figure on what your probable future will be along those lines.

    In my case, I've read the historical accounts of the martyrs, and I have no expectations about what will be the means of my departure from this world. Catholics are going to try to stick out whatever God has in His plan, here or raptured.
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Wed 05 Sep 2012, 5:31 am

    hi Beejean,

    There’s a verse about Jesus being “the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Heb. 12:2)

    Grits wrote:
    This is fun! I love to discuss the Bible and I always learn something new...
    Grits, I used to always like being in bible study. The Lord seemed to give me a limited understanding of the bible and I learned a lot during the bible study. There’s a verse, Matthew 18:20, in which Jesus said to his disciples:

    “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

    One of the factors that complicates rapture ideas is the millennium on earth after Christ returns with the holy angels. The ultimate rapture might not occur until after the final millennium on earth. In the musical scale – do re mi fa so la ti do, there are 7 notes before returning to the same note, an octave higher. This might correspond with the 7 days of God’s creation, and on the 7th day He rested. The 7th day of rest might be prophetic of the 7th and final millennium on earth before the final resurrection to eternal heaven. The apostle Peter said -- II Peter 3:8 –

    “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

    John



    Last edited by johnl on Wed 05 Sep 2012, 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : changed Rev. to Heb.)
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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Thu 06 Sep 2012, 12:43 am

    Beejean,

    As a child studying the Bible I was always fascinated by this verse:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    ...and I could not understand how this could be true as no one in the modern age that I knew of killed anyone by beheading them. Then along comes the rise of Islam and especially after 9/11 the beheadings once again took center stage...and when all of that began to happen, I told God I was sorry for not believing him. It amazes me that people cannot see that the events foretold in the Bible are playing out one by one.

    Anyway, your talk of the martyrs reminded me of that. Jesus told us to occupy until He returns. That is what I plan to do. cheers

    Hey John,

    Okay, here is how I see it will happen...others may disagree. Jesus does not return to earth at the Rapture. He calls those believers UP to heaven with him. After the rapture there will still be a few that will be saved but not many as most will believe the delusion and will rejoice that all the "evil" Christians are gone. Jesus will return after the marriage in Heaven with the church (body of Christ) and the endtimes battles will take place. After this will be the millennial reign of 1000 years during which God will once again test the people...and after that comes the FINAL judgement. Trust me, you don't want to be at the final judgement. The Christians will have already been judged by Christ, but it is the Father that carries out the final judgement also known as the Great White Throne judgement. That's the way I see it, others see it slightly differently and I'm not good at explaining it so will give you this description:

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

    I believe that God knows that we do not all understand this in the same way and I'd have to go find the verse but I've read it before that God judges based on knowledge that we have (helps to explain how those aborigines out in the wild will be judged). I also don't believe that a person's view of the rapture and when it will or will not occur is a salvation issue. To me it's just something interesting to to try and understand but I believe the pre-mid-post will all go at the same time...lol

    It's fascinating to study and I always learn something new every time I dig deeper trying to understand it all.

    Grits
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Thu 06 Sep 2012, 11:38 am

    hi Grits,

    This links to a short article about "Rising anti-Islamic Sentiment in America...."

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/05/rising-anti-islamic-sentiment-in-america-troubles-muslims/?hpt=hp_bn1

    I just bought a book "The Mideast Beast" which proposes that the anti-christ will come from among the muslims. Way back in the 1970's I connected Rev. 20:4 about beheading with muslim practices, and that Islamic jihad might become as dangerous as communism.

    These 2 passages in Rev. chapters 6 and 7 might go along with Rev. 20:4 --

    chap. 6 --

    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

    and chap. 7 --

    " After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    .....
    "....And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    ....
    "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
    -----------------

    So what you said about muslim "beheadings" might be similar to what actually happens to faithful christians before the second coming of Christ -- they'll be in paradise but not because of being "pre-trib-raptured."

    But Jesus said to his disciples, (Matthew 10:27-29)

    "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father."
    ----------------------

    I agree with this part of your explanation of endtime events:

    After this will be the millennial reign of 1000 years during which God will once again test the people...and after that comes the FINAL judgement. Trust me, you don't want to be at the final judgement. The Christians will have already been judged by Christ, but it is the Father that carries out the final judgement also known as the Great White Throne judgement.
    However, this part could lead to a trap:

    Jesus does not return to earth at the Rapture. He calls those believers UP to heaven with him. (I assume pre-trib, 7 years before Christ's actual return)
    Satan could use this false premise (IMO) to lure pre-tribbers into thinking they will be raptured, possibly with a holographic lightshow (Project Bluebeam), with a fake Christ descending.

    Matthew 24:26,27

    John

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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Fri 07 Sep 2012, 3:27 am

    Short answer for now as I'm up past my bedtime...

    Project Bluebeam, I've read up on that. It could be part of the delusion that is sent at the end. I lean on these verses and trust that God will reveal the truth through the Holy Spirit.

    Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:
    Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
    Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

    Gotta get to bed....more later...

    Grits
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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Sun 09 Sep 2012, 12:48 am

    Hey John!

    I've been thinking about the great delusion and what you posted about Project Bluebook. I don't think the delusion will come before the rapture but after it. They will have to have something to explain all the missing Christians...just a thought.

    Have you ever heard of Jimmy De Young? He is a Bible prophecy expert that has a great way of explaining it all...

    I was looking for something to post to you about the great delusion and what it might be and ended up at Jimmy's website. I used to listen to him a lot, but haven't recently, so I've been having a great time catching up with what he's been doing lately.

    I'm going to post a youtube he did here and if you want we can discuss it. He does a whole walk-through of Revelation and it's in 6 parts on youtube. If you don't want to we can go back to just talking...but thought you would enjoy his video and check out his website also:

    Website:

    http://www.prophecytoday.com/

    Here is the video - Part I

    Grits
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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Sun 09 Sep 2012, 2:13 am

    John,

    I've decided to post the remaining videos. They may help someone in the future. The first one is mainly an intro.

    Revelation Walkthru dvd 2



    Revelation Walkthru dvd 3



    Revelation Walkthru dvd 4



    Revelation Walkthru dvd 5



    Revelation Walkthru dvd 6



    cheers
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Sun 09 Sep 2012, 12:14 pm

    hi Grits,

    I listened to all 6 of your videos. Most of what he said in those videos are what most Protestant evangelicals were taught since the 1950's, and emphasized by Billy Graham, who was a Wheaton College graduate. The narrator doesn't say much about the pretrib rapture.

    In the third video, Jimmy deYoung stated that Rome was the city on 7 hills referred to in Rev. 17, and that a Pope would rule the world from Jerusalem. I tend to think that the city of 7 hills is Jerusalem, and that a muslim will rule the world from Jerusalem.

    He thinks that the final millenium will be based a lot on what was said in the Old Testament. However, the Feasts and worship through sacrifice of sheep and oxen by the priests and Levites, were fulfilled in Christ's death and resurrection.

    7:00 minute mark, 6th video: He thinks that the New Jerusalem will not be on Earth but "the New Jerusalem will hover someplace in the heavenlies over the New Earth." I tend to agree with this. An ATS topic discussed how the measurements of the New Jerusalem would be like a tetrahedron that fits almost precisely within the circumference of the moon; the pyramid of Giza is a 1/10,000th replica of the New Jerusalem. I personally think Rev. 21 and 22 refer to the 7th and final millenium on Earth, and that there will be a final rapture, in which the faithful will go to eternal heaven.

    He emphasizes h-ll and the lake of fire as places of suffering forever and ever and ever and ever. However, IMO, after the final judgment of unrepentant sinners, the lake of fire completely consumes, no more suffering.

    Thanks for continuing the bible study. 35 years ago I could've gone along with a pretrib Pentecostal or Baptist girl and got married and lived happily ever after. But like in the X-files, "the truth is out there."

    John

    ps If there's a PO Box, I could mail a donation for the website.

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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Thu 13 Sep 2012, 3:28 pm

    John,

    Most of what he said in those videos are what most Protestant evangelicals were taught since the 1950's,

    There are many that think the rapture is a "modern" invention, but I was not taught the rapture in my church growing up. I don't recall them EVER mentioning it. I grew up in the Methodist church. My understanding came from my own reading of the Bible and then seeking information to help understand what I had read.

    Here is an informative link to read and an excerpt:

    The Margaret MacDonald Origin

    One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

    Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

    One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

    With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

    http://raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

    So there is evidence going back to 373 AD for evidence of the rapture. It is NOT a modern invention.

    Regarding the anti-Christ being muslim. I tend to agree with that theory as Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed. I could do a whole thread about that topic alone, but suffice it to say that with Christianity God sent His son to die for all of our sins and to reconnect us with Him, and with Islam, they are to sacrifice themselves for their moon god.

    I had another very good internet friend who has since passed that was convinced that the anti-Christ would come from the European Union. He thought it was going to be Javier Solana. This was a several years ago and we had discussions about Bashar Assad during that time also so the recent news concerning Syria has me paying attention to that...

    ...posting a link to Herb's book he wrote:

    Recommendation 666: The Rise of the Beast From the Sea

    As far as the New Jerusalem, once again I had an internet buddy that thought the same as you. He was the guy I talked about recently on EB that studied symbolism. He was a weird dude and I would say a genius, but a very strange one... What a Face He was the one that told me about the tiny drones long before they became public knowledge. Anyway, getting off track thinking about that...lol

    Lastly, many things in the Old Testament are foreshadowings of things to come in the future. The Temple Faithful in Israel have everything ready to put the new temple in place. That is the one thing I didn't understand when Jimmy said Jesus would build the new temple. I'll have to research that a bit...but if the world was spoken into existence by a Word then I guess a temple could be also... Smile

    With God ALL things are possible...

    Grits
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Fri 14 Sep 2012, 10:41 am

    hi Grits,

    Yes, there were pre-trib ideas before Margaret McDonald's vision. Actually it was John Nelson Darby who emphasized the pretrib rapture idea in that time period before Margaret's prophetic utterance. Darby actually thought the tongues and prophetic utterances of people like Margaret were demon-based. In many cases, such as Todd Bentley, charismatics with tongues and healing manifestations might be using New Age-type powers.

    However, Margaret's prophetic utterance seems genuine, as given in this short wiki article: (amazing message)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_McDonald_(visionary)

    John Wesley, who founded the Methodist movement in England, was not a charismatic, but he allowed pentecostal-type enthusiasm.

    This is one of his sermons about the "day of the Lord."

    http://archives.umc.org/frames.asp?url=http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-015.stm

    excerpt (skipping to Section III) --

    2. Then the heavens will be shrivelled up as a parchment scroll, and pass away with a great noise: they will "flee from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and there will be found no place for them" (Rev. 20:11). The very manner of their passing away is disclosed to us by the Apostle Peter: "In the day of God, the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved" (2 Pet. 3:12). The whole beautiful fabric will be overthrown by that raging element, the connexion of all its parts destroyed, and every atom torn asunder from the others. By the same, "the earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burned up" (verse 10). The enormous works of nature, the everlasting hills, mountains that have defied the rage of time, and stood unmoved so many thousand years, will sink down in fiery ruin. How much less will the works of art, though of the most durable kind, the utmost efforts of human industry -- tombs, pillars, triumphal arches, castles, pyramids -- be able to withstand the flaming conqueror! All, all will die, perish, vanish away, like a dream when one awaketh! 11

    This seems to indicate that unrepentant sinners will "perish" as in John 3:16, not suffer forever and ever and ever.

    The whole section III might be worth reading. Wesley's preaching of the eternal consequences of sin probably made a lot of people realize that living a moral life in the sight of God was much better than rebelling in sin and corruption. Where France fell into violent revolution, England remained relatively stable. Some of the Methodist preaching in England might've shown the population a better way than violent revolution.

    John
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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 4:32 pm

    This seems to indicate that unrepentant sinners will "perish" as in John 3:16, not suffer forever and ever and ever.

    John, I disagree with you on this one. The Bible says this:

    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    The most important decision a person can ever make is whether to accept God or whether to reject Him. Whichever decision you make I believe is eternal.


    How Could a God of Love Send People to Hell?


    If God is so good, then how could He allow people to go to hell? Hell seems so inconsistent with the character of God. Why not send everyone to heaven? To answer this question properly a number of points should be made.

    1. Hell Not Prepared For Humanity

    First, we must recognize that God did not make hell for humanity. The Bible says that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels. Jesus said.

    Then He [God] will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).


    Hell was not part of God's original creation. It was only made after the angelic fall.

    2. Made For Eternity

    Each of us has been made for eternity.

    He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of humans; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end (Ecclesiastes 3:11).


    There is no destruction of the human soul or spirit. All of us will have to spend eternity somewhere.

    3. Nowhere Else To Go

    Since we have been made for eternity, and certain people have rejected heaven, there is nowhere else for them to go. Hell, by definition, is the total absence of God. When God's offer of forgiveness is rejected, then they must go to a place which is away from His goodness.

    4. God Sends No One

    It cannot be stressed too strongly that God sends no one to hell, or everlasting punishment. People go to hell because of their willful rejection of Christ, not because of God's desire. The Bible says of God.

    Who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).


    Peter wrote.


    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).


    Those who go to hell have rejected Christ and His message.

    Summary


    God does not send anyone to hell. Each of us have been made for eternity and there is some place we must go after death. If someone rejects God's free gift of salvation, then they must be sent away from His presence. The Bible says that this place is hell. Though God originally created hell for the Devil and his angels, wicked humanity will send themselves there for not believing God's promises.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=172

    More on this topic at the Blue Letter Bible "Frequently Asked Questions" part:

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/faq_search.cfm?Criteria=hell

    God has been putting something on my heart to share and I am currently putting it together. Will post soon.

    Also, a discussion of signs of the endtimes and the countries involved would be interesting, don't ya think? scratch

    More later...
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 6:58 pm

    Grits, Most christians have been taught what you posted. It's pretty hard to explain away Rev. 14:11, but there might be a valid different interpretation. Rather than get into a debate, I hope we just agree to disagree. I don't agree with much of what the Adventists teach, but I agree with their teaching that the "eternal fire" consumes completely, no more suffering. However, I believe in the temporary places in the afterlife of paradise and h-ll. It gets complicated and is probably better left alone. There's a song "The Love of God" with these words:

    http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/o/loveofgo.htm

    The love of God is greater far
    Than tongue or pen can ever tell;
    It goes beyond the highest star,
    And reaches to the lowest hell;

    The guilty pair, bowed down with care,
    God gave His Son to win;
    His erring child He reconciled,
    And pardoned from his sin.

    Refrain
    O love of God, how rich and pure!
    How measureless and strong!
    It shall forevermore endure
    The saints’ and angels’ song.

    When years of time shall pass away,
    And earthly thrones and kingdoms fall,
    When men, who here refuse to pray,
    On rocks and hills and mountains call,
    God’s love so sure, shall still endure,
    All measureless and strong;
    Redeeming grace to Adam’s race—
    The saints’ and angels’ song.
    Refrain

    And of course, eternal heaven for the faithful, as in the song "O Come All Ye Faithful."

    John



    Last edited by johnl on Sun 16 Sep 2012, 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added the last line)
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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Mon 17 Sep 2012, 12:42 am

    We can agree to disagree. Fire is used in many ways in the Bible. The worst thing about Hell to me would be a complete separation from God.

    Also, here is another theory that I've never really heard anyone discuss but have wondered about for years...

    Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    I've thought about those verses quite a bit. Could God have created some men who were simply meant to be destroyed as an example to other men? Would they have a soul? I don't know the answers but I've always found these verses as an example of what it says in the Bible that humans do not know the way of God. We are incapable of knowing why He created as did and what the ultimate purpose is...

    ...but one day He will explain it all to those that will listen...

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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Mon 17 Sep 2012, 5:07 pm

    The main reason I tend toward the old-time Methodist teachings is because they teach "free will." I think all peoples are human, but they have the choice of doing good or doing evil. This is the passage that shows that God has nothing to do with evil: (James 1:12-18)

    "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
    "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    "Do not err, my beloved brethren."
    There's a verse that false teachers use to say that God creates evil, Isaiah 45:7 --

    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
    This short article explains what "evil" in this verse means: (calamity)

    http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

    The bible shows that God is not a respector of persons. He wants his creation to trust and obey him, and there are consequences for those who sin and rebel. Satan and a third of the angels rebelled and were cast out. Adam and Eve rebelled and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Everyone in Noah's time, except Noah and his family, rebelled and were sunk by the great flood. Israel, chosen from the time of Abraham-Isaac-Jacob to receive God's blessings, rebelled and were conquered and taken captive by the Assyrians and the Babylonians. So in a way, God did send "evil" to those who rebelled, but it wasn't evil "evil," it was righteous judgment in the form of calamity. Romans 6:23 --

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
    Having said all that, your reference to Romans 9 brings up a controversial point. There are other passages that seem to go along with that idea, such as John 10:26-28 -- Jesus said to the Pharisees:

    "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

    and also John 6:44, 45

    "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
    My guess is that God wants all men to come unto him, but sin and temptation resists God's calling. But this is the promise to those who receive Christ as savior: John 1:12 --
    :
    " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Sat 22 Sep 2012, 11:22 pm

    The main reason I tend toward the old-time Methodist teachings is because they teach "free will." I think all peoples are human, but they have the choice of doing good or doing evil.

    Free Will vs. Predestination

    That one is a tough one for me. I see it both ways and go back and forth on this all the time. God clearly CHOSE people for His purposes even before they were born (Jeremiah being chosen to be a prophet even before birth for example) so that makes me lean towards predestination, but then there are many passages which speak of free will also as in the very fact that one must CHOOSE Jesus. It's complex to say the least.

    God has emotions as evidenced by the fact that He hated Esau. Maybe it's possible that God lays many paths out for us and hopes we choose the right one and when we don't like Esau, He is disappointed. I'm rambling now, but this one has perplexed me for a while. I need to study and reflect on this topic a LOT more... scratch

    Grits
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    DearWife

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  DearWife on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:33 am

    "God clearly CHOSE people for His purposes even before they were born (Jeremiah being chosen to be a prophet even before birth for example) so that makes me lean towards predestination, but then there are many passages which speak of free will also as in the very fact that one must CHOOSE Jesus."

    Hi Grits. When reading your response about "one must CHOOSE Jesus" this is what I was reminded of, what Jesus said:

    "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you, that ye go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit remain, that whatsoever ye shall ask of the father in my name, he should give it you." John 15:16

    Also, God has mercy on whom he has mercy and hardens who he wants to harden. Just like God told Moses he would harden the heart of Pharoah, so that he could show his miracles to his people. In times past, when I prayed for help, when I could not defend myself, my prayers were answered. "And whatsoever ye ask in my name, that will I do, that the father might be glorified by the son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

    Romans 9:

    "I speak not these things as though the words of God had taken none effect. For they are not all Israelites which came of Israel: neither are they all children straight way because they are the seed of Abraham. But in Isaac shall thy seed be called: that is to say, they which are the children of the flesh, are not the children of God. But the children of promise are counted the seed. For this is a word of promise, about this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

    Neither was it to with her only: but also when Rebecca was with child by one, I mean by our father Isaac, *yer the children were born, when they had neither done good neither bad: that the purpose of God which is by election, might stand, it was said unto her, not by the reason of works, but by grace of the caller: the elder shall serve the younger. As it is written: Jacob he loved, but Esau he hated. What shall we say then? is there any unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy: and will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So lieth it not then in a mans will or cunning, but in the mercy of God. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh even for this same purpose have I stirred thee up, to show my power on thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the world. So hath he mercy on whom he will, and whom he will, he maketh hard hearted."

    *yer = before


    Peace

    farao

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtLcELU1brA
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 9:17 am

    Grits, DW brings up some strong verses that seem to support Calvinist predestination. That was what the Wesleys were up against with their "free will" doctrine. At a bible study I thought of an illustration, that the road of predestination and the road of free-will seemed parallel (parallel lines don't meet). However, as the roads are seen going further away, they seem to merge in the distance. (I Corin. 13:12)

    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    A rough example might be how the longitudes of the earth sphere seem to be vertically parallel, but as the longitudinal lines go to the North and South poles, they converge. This is a link to an example of how longitudes converge to the N and S poles:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Longitude_%28PSF%29.png/220px-Longitude_%28PSF%29.png

    John


    Last edited by johnl on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added paragraph about longitudes)
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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Sun 07 Oct 2012, 8:05 pm

    For the most part, I've been taking a break from the computer for a couple of weeks, so haven't been back to this thread but John and I have been discussing a few issues via PMs. Today we were talking about things that must come to pass before the endtimes really kick in. Here's what I wrote to John:

    Everything else is in place that needs to be in place for the endtimes to escalate. RFID technology (amongst others) is in place to prevent the "buying and selling" and to track people with it also. Satellite transmissions can be seen all over the world at once which means the two prophets in Jerusalem can be seen by the world at one time as the Bible states. Knowledge has vastly increased and people are always running "to and fro". Iran/Persia is in place to destroy Israel aided by the "hook in the mouth" of Russia. At the time of the attack, Jerusalem must be an unwalled village. If you remember a few years ago, a large wall was built to keep the Palestinians out. If we see that wall come down, that means all hell is about to break loose.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

    I'm going to begin a list of items that must be in place for everything to take place. I'm sure I'll miss a few, so feel free to contribute.

    1. There must be a method in place that can prevent people from buying and selling. I believe this will be electronic methods of payment which is in place today.

    MasterCard Unveils the Future Of Payments in a Cashless Society

    2. The one world government will need to be able to trace the movements of virtually everyone on the planet.
    RFID, drone, and surveillance technology can pretty much do this today.

    RFID is already ending up in consumer products and has been for a while.
    Purpose of RFID finally discovered: It's for pairing up socks!

    A Third of Americans Worry About Police Getting Drones

    School May Install Trash Cams to Spy on Kids Tossing Veggies Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/food-police/2012/10/03/school-may-install-trash-cams-spy-kids-tossing-veggies?

    3. Everyone in the world needs to have the ability to see an event in the world all at once. Current satellite technology provides this today. The recent coverage of the Olympics is a good example.

    4. Knowledge will be vastly increased.
    We live in the computer age...nuff said.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_change

    5. People will run "to and fro". Will make diseases travel further distances.

    Web Site Tracks Mosquito-Borne Diseases Spread Globally by Air Travel

    6. An alliance between Iran(Persia/Media) and Russia will form which the kings of the east will join at the end. They currently have a loose alliance.

    Four Axes of the East: Iran Looms Large in Russia's and China's Stance on Syria

    7. There must be a 200 million man army of the east. (China due to their one birth policy now has a standing army of single men with no purpose in life but to go to war).

    China facing major gender imbalance

    8. A war weapon that can cause a man's eyes to melt in his head before his body hits the ground must be available. (Nuclear or chemical warfare can do this today).

    Israel Acquiring Banned American Laser That “Melts Eyeballs” of Enemies

    9. Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famine, and other tribulations will increase.

    What led me to EB and meeting some of you years ago was checking on the frequency of earthquakes.

    10. Many will scoff at the end days being real.
    (Happens in our current time frame all the time).

    Take your pick!

    Those are my top 10. There are more. Fill free to add to the list.

    Looks like most of the pieces are in place... Shocked

    Keep looking up! cheers



    Last edited by Grits on Thu 15 Nov 2012, 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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    johnl

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  johnl on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 6:17 am

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/newsletters/index.html

    This links to an interesting article about who the “fake Jews” are mentioned in Rev. 2:9. They’re not the mongolian-Khazarian Ashkenazi fake Jews that a couple posters at EB claim, but rather people like Kissinger, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, Soros, etc.

    excerpts –

    Kissinger, Rothschild, and the Rockefellers, are apostate Jews which Israeli journalist Barry Chamish calls Sabbatean Jews. These pretenders are atheistic and are horrified to see that modern Jewish citizen is so committed to Orthodox Judaism. Chamish says these pretender Jews would rather destroy Israel so they can bring her back again sometime in the future as the atheistic nation they so ardently desire.
    …….
    Listen to Jesus reiterate His warning against a particular kind of apostate Jew at the End of the Age.

    "Take note! I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and are not, but lie ... " (Revelation 3:9; Ibid.)

    Twice Jesus noted that a specially nasty apostate Jew would arise at the End of the Age. These men would call themselves Jews and would be able to prove it genealogically, but they are NOT Jews in Jesus's sight because they come from the "synagogue of Satan".

    This description of a great many of the Illuminati cannot be found! Jesus nailed this current situation right on the head! The many so-called "Jews" which populate the Illuminati are not Jews in Jesus' eyes, but are Satanists. Indeed, all members of the Illuminati -- whether Jew or Gentile -- are practicing occultists.
    <end of excerpts>

    The anti-christ might come from a supposed line of David (Merovingian bloodline as suggested in Dan Brown’s book “The Da Vinci Code” and made into a movie starring Tom Hanks). (Daniel 11:37)

    Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

    John
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    Grits

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    Re: The coming possible catastropic events from a biblical perspective...

    Post  Grits on Thu 15 Nov 2012, 1:26 am

    With the recent election and knowing that Prez. Obama is not a true friend to Israel, have we reached this point in Bible prophecy?

    Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    The U.S. was basically the only nation left standing with Israel. After this election's results, I don't know if we can say that is true any longer.

    Thoughts anyone?


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